GlamRock.com Forum » GENERAL Music forum

Kurt Cobain

(150 posts)
  • Started 3 years ago by metalrulesall
  • Latest reply from Aquanet

  1. carroll13

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    Am I reading this wrong or did you seriously just say that Jimi Hendrix was less talented than Kurt Cobain. Because I seriously can't believe anyone would say anything that ignorantly against all reality."- GlamJam89

    I'd say they're about equal.
    Jimi broke musical "rules", and got accused of things like "just making noise and calling it a hit", or being "sloppy" for having bent/sliding notes and using feedback, atonal sounds, and white noise as musical elements.
    They both played with the "wrong" hand, did some genderbending, and were both from Seattle.
    The differences being that Kurt played a different form of Rock, less overtly bluesy(although Nirvana covered Leadbelly), and he mostly used a lot of the musical vocabulary that Jimi's No-Wave,Postpunk, and Hardcore descendants had used and expanded on during the 70s and 80s.
    I got the impression that he was looking to expand it further on the last album, especially with the churning MBV type guitars on Heart Shaped Box, but obviously his problems and pressures hit some sort of obviously fatal critical mass before he could really break new ground.

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    Posted 3 years ago #  
  2. Stanley

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    As I said earlier we should not offer 'cups of teas' or 'opinions', we should concentrate on facts

    FACT: Cobain & his grunge movement destroyed glam and ruined the whole industry

    FACT: The musicianship is just average

    FACT: THE GUY BLEW HIS BRAINS OUT - Most creative thing he ever did.

    "I'M BACK!!"
    Posted 3 years ago #  
  3. carroll13

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    no he didn't want to be famous. thats why he killed himself. he thought that Nevermind was too successful. That it totally defied their purpose from the begeninning."
    - rockNrollstar

    Wrong.
    He killed himself because he had some serious health and job issues.
    The band was never happy with the mix on Nevermind, because it was a bit watered down, because due to scheduling problems, it was mixed by a Metal mixer.
    Then, when they made their third album, In Utero, they were trying to be more in control musically, and the record company felt it was too stimulating, which led to a later release with fewer tracks...and there were mixing troubles there too.
    On top of that: health problems galore, being shunned by old "friends" for doing well, an annoying and blatant Nancy Spungen wannabe wife(...ok, that's just the impression I've always had of her...my bias is showing.), and a genetic history of some of those exact same health problems, which had previously lead to suicide for other members of his family as well....AND a new kid he had to take care of.
    It was no single thing, he sorta got hit with a perfect storm for suicide.

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    Posted 3 years ago #  
  4. carroll13

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    "As I said earlier we should not offer 'cups of teas' or 'opinions', we should concentrate on facts
    FACT: Cobain & his grunge movement destroyed glam and ruined the whole industry
    FACT: The musicianship is just average
    FACT: THE GUY BLEW HIS BRAINS OUT - Most creative thing he ever did."- Stanley

    FACT: Cobain never had a "Grunge movement". When asked if such a thing existed, he said "Yes, but it was in Portland in the 80s, and the hottest band was The Wipers". "Grunge" was a marketing term used for Northwest Punk bands on the Sub Pop label.
    FACT: The musicianship was hardly genius, but took far more sonic chances than many bands in the "Glam" metal movement, which was also by that time being shunned by the Metal community at large in favour of Thrash Metal, Black Metal, and the earliest forms of Death Metal.
    Axl Rose even wore clothes that said "Glam Sucks", and stopped shaving and wearing makeup.
    FACT: In a time when most Metal fans and bands were sick of "Glam Fags", Nirvana was wearing dresses and eyeliner, having male/male kisses on national TV, wearing ball gowns on Headbanger's Ball, and playing at least one Bowie cover, as well as songs with big anthemic Glam Rock choruses with sarcastic jokes about superficiality.

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    Posted 3 years ago #  
  5. carroll13

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    *I'd say they're about equal.*

    ...eh, wrong choice of words, not quite what I meant there...Hendrix was obviously more innovative, Cobain was working up to it.

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    Posted 3 years ago #  
  6. Stanley

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    Other than being a drug addict and depressed, what are these 'serious health issues' you mention, Carroll13? He was hyperactive as a kid and had some sort of a stomach condition in his adult life that he used as an excuse for his heroin habit. That ain't mo excuse for suicide. I've never read about anything else, so if you could cite your source of information, I would be greatful for the enlightenment.

    You mention 'job issues' What? Being one of the highest paid musicians in the world at the time and having back-to-back multi-milliom selling albums? - I can't see a reason for suicide there either.

    Also how do you call Butch Vig,(producer of Nevermind)a metal producer? He is known for his work with Garbage, Sonic Youth & Smashing Pumpkins. And In Utero was considered by Geffen to sub-par and all you have to is listen to it yourself and you can tell that it is a mess. And that isn't the fault of the producers or record company, that is because the band or more specifically Cobain, couldn't decide on what they wanted, nor were they good enough muso's to pull it off properly.

    I do agree with you on the 'Spungen wannabe' wife but all he had to do was leave her, not kill himself. And to do that to the kid was totally irresponsible. Whatever other members of his family committed suicide, I also dont know, so I would like to be enlightened on that. But even so, you'd think he would have seen the impact the suicides would have had on the other family members and friends and if he were of sane mind he would have refrained from that course of action to himself.

    Face it people, there is no excuse for suicide.

    There is no excuse for Grunge

    It is only a good thing that Grunge died when Cobain did.

    "I'M BACK!!"
    Posted 3 years ago #  
  7. Stanley

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    I have a question
    Why are we even talking about this on glamrock.com?? Admin??

    To quote from the home page:
    GlamRock.com is about people like you. People that love their music with glam whether it is Glam Metal / Hair Metal or Glam Rock……but it must be glam.

    * Immediately start making friends from all around the world who are into glam like you are.
    * Learn more about Glam by hearing ideas from other people who love glam
    * Share you ideas and see how much people here really do value your opinion

    We are not allowed to discuss Gary Glitter the Godfather od all things glam, yet we can talk about this Cobain loser and his pathetic movement.

    "I'M BACK!!"
    Posted 3 years ago #  
  8. Stanley

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    "

    "As I said earlier we should not offer 'cups of teas' or 'opinions', we should concentrate on facts
    FACT: Cobain & his grunge movement destroyed glam and ruined the whole industry
    FACT: The musicianship is just average
    FACT: THE GUY BLEW HIS BRAINS OUT - Most creative thing he ever did."- Stanley

    FACT: Cobain never had a "Grunge movement". When asked if such a thing existed, he said "Yes, but it was in Portland in the 80s, and the hottest band was The Wipers". "Grunge" was a marketing term used for Northwest Punk bands on the Sub Pop label.
    FACT: The musicianship was hardly genius, but took far more sonic chances than many bands in the "Glam" metal movement, which was also by that time being shunned by the Metal community at large in favour of Thrash Metal, Black Metal, and the earliest forms of Death Metal.
    Axl Rose even wore clothes that said "Glam Sucks", and stopped shaving and wearing makeup.
    FACT: In a time when most Metal fans and bands were sick of "Glam Fags", Nirvana was wearing dresses and eyeliner, having male/male kisses on national TV, wearing ball gowns on Headbanger's Ball, and playing at least one Bowie cover, as well as songs with big anthemic Glam Rock choruses with sarcastic jokes about superficiality."
    - carroll13

    He may not have had a 'grunge movement' as I originally said, but he was back then and forever will be the best known exponent of the genre - like it or not.

    I'm sorry but I fail to hear the 'sonic chances' that the grunge musicians took than some of the over-the-top efforts from the glam movement.

    Um, yes Axl...i can't argue that. He's pretty disfunctional himself.

    The last point, I do not have enough info on to debate with you...it's my own fault because I never watched any of that stuff when it was on TV.

    "I'M BACK!!"
    Posted 3 years ago #  
  9. childofglam

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    Stanley, I've got an old sleazy song entitled "I Love Courtney Love (for the death of Kurt)". I think we should jam

    Posted 3 years ago #  
  10. Stanley

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    That sounds awesome chilofglam!! You gotta show us the lyrics!

    I'd love to jam with you Dude, but we are literally oceans apart!

    "I'M BACK!!"
    Posted 3 years ago #  
  11. childofglam

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    Yeah. that ocean thing is pretty lame. Well, who knows man, Ratt Poison might end up over in our neck of the woods some day! Opening for Ratt & Poison! Now that, would be a confusing flyer! LOL. But definetly a show that I would attend!

    Posted 3 years ago #  
  12. glammetalmonster

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    I understand what you mean, however while Nirvana wasn't all roses and sunshine, it wasn't all glum either. They had plenty of humourous and fun songs as well.
    Negative Creep has always cracked me up(...making fun of negative people), and Sliver? Perhaps not the happiest subject(being stuck at grandma's house when you want to go home), but not that gloomy either...a whole chorus of "Gramma take me home!" is pretty lighthearted and funny to me."
    - carroll13

    Thanks for the info. I'll have a listen to those. Will be glad to find some common ground. I've certainly learned a few things from this thread, which is never a bad thing. :mrgreen:

    Posted 3 years ago #  
  13. carroll13

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    *Other than being a drug addict and depressed, what are these 'serious health issues' you mention, Carroll13?*

    Those are serious health issues. Both of those things are caused by physiological problems in the brain, and they cause physical problems. Ask Nikki Sixx, DuffMcKagen(sp?) or any other recovering addict about that.
    And that, mixed with the genetic stomach problems which he self-medicated with the heroin, which is a very powerful painkiller...and unfortunately very likely to cause chemical dependency as well.

    *He was hyperactive as a kid and had some sort of a stomach condition in his adult life that he used as an excuse for his heroin habit. That ain't mo excuse for suicide.*

    Excuse? No. Explanation. There's no excuse for suicide, but it happens, depression is often a fatal disease, as is addiction.

    *You mention 'job issues' What? Being one of the highest paid musicians in the world at the time and having back-to-back multi-milliom selling albums? - I can't see a reason for suicide there either.*

    Again, the guy had clinical depression and addiction...being highly paid has never cured anyone of those problems, because they're neurological problems.
    Beyond that, as I mentioned, Geffen was not wanting to allow Nirvana to release a new Nirvana album.

    *Also how do you call Butch Vig,(producer of Nevermind)a metal producer?*

    I said "mixer".
    Nevermind was mixed by Andy Wallace, who was best known at that time for mixing Slayer.
    He was brought in at the last minute because the album was taking longer than the schedule allowed, and Butch had other engagements, so he couldn't mix all of it.
    The result was much more polished than the band actually sounded.

    * And In Utero was considered by Geffen to sub-par and all you have to is listen to it yourself and you can tell that it is a mess. And that isn't the fault of the producers or record company, that is because the band or more specifically Cobain, couldn't decide on what they wanted, nor were they good enough muso's to pull it off properly.*

    They were using more dissonance than Geffen wanted them to use. Geffen wanted something nicer sounding, less uncomfortable, something safe...which the band mocked on "Radio Friendly Unit Shifter," which is intensely dissonant.

    *I do agree with you on the 'Spungen wannabe' wife but all he had to do was leave her, not kill himself. And to do that to the kid was totally irresponsible.*

    Total agreement there. I'm not condoning what he did.

    *Whatever other members of his family committed suicide, I also dont know, so I would like to be enlightened on that. But even so, you'd think he would have seen the impact the suicides would have had on the other family members and friends and if he were of sane mind he would have refrained from that course of action to himself.*

    But that's the point, people with those health problems are by definition not of sane mind.
    I don't recall all the details, but I remember after he died, his mother talked about several uncles of his who had the same stomach problems, severe depression, and alcoholism/addiction, and ended up committing suicide as a result.

    *I'm sorry but I fail to hear the 'sonic chances' that the grunge musicians took than some of the over-the-top efforts from the glam movement.*

    A hugely successful and marketable Rock band follows up their hugely successful and relatively commercial sounding second album with an album that uses so much dissonance that the record company, being unfamiliar with the experimental side of Punk Rock and Postpunk(See:Sonic Youth, Gang Of Four,Jesus & Mary Chain, My Bloody Valentine, etc..) stalls the release of the album until they can soften the mix.
    ....somebody at Geffen obviously felt they were taking a risk if they slowed the album down from coming to the market.
    As a musician, I would find that sort of interference with the creative process very troubling, and if I were depressed, it would probably make me more depressed.

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    Posted 3 years ago #  
  14. metalrulesall

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    such debate lol

    " into the flood again same old trip it was back then "
    Posted 3 years ago #  
  15. rockNrollstar

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    kurt cobain commited suicide becuse they wasn't willing to pay the price for his music. he didn't want to be famous! he hated everything that happened to him when Nirvana got popular. in all the books ive read about them, they all say the same thing. he was just a drug addict kid who got lucky!!! nothing more!!!! now, like was said above, why is this even being discussed here!!! Im sure you can go find some Nirvana fansite or something.

    Anything worth doing, is definatly worth over doing!
    Posted 3 years ago #  
  16. carroll13

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    I think an exchange of ideas, information, and opinions can be useful.
    I also mentioned the loose ties to Glam, to keep it from being totally OT.

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    Posted 3 years ago #  
  17. admin

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    "I have a question
    Why are we even talking about this on glamrock.com?? Admin??
    To quote from the home page:
    GlamRock.com is about people like you. People that love their music with glam whether it is Glam Metal / Hair Metal or Glam Rock……but it must be glam.
    * Immediately start making friends from all around the world who are into glam like you are.
    * Learn more about Glam by hearing ideas from other people who love glam
    * Share you ideas and see how much people here really do value your opinion

    We are not allowed to discuss Gary Glitter the Godfather od all things glam, yet we can talk about this Cobain loser and his pathetic movement."
    - Stanley

    Stanley, yes you are right....to a point.

    It's a fact that many people who identify closely with glam, have secondary preferences which include Southern Rock, Blues, Death Metal and even Grunge.

    To deny people the opportunity of discussing their other musical preferences is wrong in my opinion. As a community, we need to encourage free speech, freedom of expression and freedom to be who you want to be. That's how we genuinely become a better community where our members like metalrulesall can say whatever is on their mind without fear of censure.

    The members of GlamRock.com do associate themselves as glam first and foremost which is the common thread that binds us together. If certain members like hot air ballooning, bass fishing, tapestry or even grunge, we should embrace the diversity that we are blessed to have amongst us.

    admin
    Posted 3 years ago #  
  18. rockNrollstar

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    true. but still, i think that it was only posted to make people argue

    Anything worth doing, is definatly worth over doing!
    Posted 3 years ago #  
  19. metalrulesall

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    amen to you admin !.....i couldnt have said it better myself.....my hat goes off to you buddy

    " into the flood again same old trip it was back then "
    Posted 3 years ago #  
  20. GlamJam89

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    "true. but still, i think that it was only posted to make people argue"
    - rockNrollstar

    Actually, he created it just to discuss Kurt Cobain. He just asked if anyone else liked him. He never said he was better than any of the artists we love or anything, he just said that he enjoys Nirvana as well as glam. While I oppose grunge, I'm totally for doing your own thing, so I really have no problem with it.

    It may have turned into an argument, but hell, it's kind of fun to argue about something as long as it's done in a civilized manner like it is here. As long as things don't spin out of control it's pretty cool, and it can help educate people, maybe get them into another type of music they had overlooked before. I mean, we talk about how grunge brainwashed people against glam, but now we're just doing the same thing by totally hating grunge without remorse. Maybe some of us will discover another passion from a conversation like this, and that's totally cool.

    Posted 3 years ago #  
  21. GlamRose

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    I LOVE Kurt Cobain and I LOVE Nirvana.
    One of the best bands of the 90's in my opinion.
    I know that a lot of people into glam absolutely hate Nirvana.
    I never understood why. They're just a different type of music.
    And I definitely DON'T limit myself to just one genre of music.
    Some people may say, well how can Nirvana compare to Motley Crue or Guns N Roses?
    Well, I don't compare them to any glam bands because they're not glam!
    Kurt was a genius, whether you believe it or not.
    He had an amazing voice, and there is just something so chilling about listening to Nirvana.
    I think he deserves the utmost respect and I will always defend him when people start bashing him.

    Posted 3 years ago #  
  22. rockNrollstar

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    i used to be into it, but it just got really old, really fast. hating yourself too much will eventually do that i guess. It just makes everyone who isn't like them think that they are not good enough or something. it made people embarrassed to express themselves. I think it also gave way for, yuck, EMO!!! Now that, is a pointless genre! atleast grunge was okay, whether still is or at one point was, but emo really just needs to fade away.

    Anything worth doing, is definatly worth over doing!
    Posted 3 years ago #  
  23. motleyguy

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    Fuck, I have no electricity for 2 days and look what I missed.

    Whoever looks up to Kurt Cobain and believes that he is a genius, must be stooping too low.

    There was nothing special about him other than taking the cowards way to martyrdom.

    Just another schmuck in the right place at the right time. Like Jed Clampett.

    Rock & roll over babe
    Posted 3 years ago #  
  24. rockNrollstar

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    "Fuck, I have no electricity for 2 days and look what I missed.
    Whoever looks up to Kurt Cobain and believes that he is a genius, must be stooping too low.
    There was nothing special about him other than taking the cowards way to martyrdom.
    Just another schmuck in the right place at the right time. Like Jed Clampett."
    - motleyguy

    Im gonna have to say that i agree with you. he was just some guy who got way to lucky.

    Anything worth doing, is definatly worth over doing!
    Posted 3 years ago #  
  25. rockNrollstar

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    "

    no he didn't want to be famous. thats why he killed himself. he thought that Nevermind was too successful. That it totally defied their purpose from the begeninning."
    - rockNrollstar

    Wrong.
    He killed himself because he had some serious health and job issues.
    The band was never happy with the mix on Nevermind, because it was a bit watered down, because due to scheduling problems, it was mixed by a Metal mixer.
    Then, when they made their third album, In Utero, they were trying to be more in control musically, and the record company felt it was too stimulating, which led to a later release with fewer tracks...and there were mixing troubles there too.
    On top of that: health problems galore, being shunned by old "friends" for doing well, an annoying and blatant Nancy Spungen wannabe wife(...ok, that's just the impression I've always had of her...my bias is showing.), and a genetic history of some of those exact same health problems, which had previously lead to suicide for other members of his family as well....AND a new kid he had to take care of.
    It was no single thing, he sorta got hit with a perfect storm for suicide."
    - carroll13

    Ive read several books on them. He didn't have health problems. he was a drug addict who didn't like the music he was making. The fact that they didn't like the producer is entirely their own fault. They could have said no. and there is nothing wrong with metal. the only few songs i ever listened to from nirvana were on the nevermind album and now i guess i know why.

    His only health problem was a stomache condition he got because he refused to listen to people and didn't sing properly! as a result of this, according to him, that is why he did heroin.

    Anything worth doing, is definatly worth over doing!
    Posted 3 years ago #  
  26. rockNrollstar

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    and as for his job....well it seemed to me that it was going just fine. his music was successful and selling. he was just whining because he created a trend. and he didn't like that.

    Anything worth doing, is definatly worth over doing!
    Posted 3 years ago #  
  27. kissangel

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    I really don't know alot about the "industry" side to this. Stanley can tell you about that and believe me he knows what he's talking about! I'm going to share something personal that I rarely do....I have a teenage son that idolizes Kurt. It was the KISS- NIRVANA wars in my house for years.lol My son is a very talented musician...he changed his guitar style and singing to sound just like Kurt. Which to even my untrained ear just sounds a little off. I don't know how many times he got sent home from school because of that stoned smiley face tee shirt! All the usual teen stuff. Then came the drug and depression wars. We have been in and out of rehab...I'm so afraid the drugs are going to be the end of him...or worse to try to go out like Kurt! But I have not given up. Before you tell me about a parenting issue.....I take full responsibility for my failures...but what I'm saying is, Kurt did not help. Do these guys know what an impact they have on young people? They wear their drug abuse and emotioal problems as a medal of honor.
    I believe in freedom of expression and I enjoy all kinds of music...but I prefer music that makes you feel good! For what it's worth....

    Posted 3 years ago #  
  28. Syndrome477

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    "carroll13...its nice to see some one else on this thread who actaully knows what there talking about...stanely could learn a thing or 2 from us....pathetic musician pfftt....thats more along the lines of jimi hendrix or robert plant....glam expert my ass !....im sorry stanely but you crossed the line when you pissed me off buy making fun of kurt coabin....carroll13 was right 100 percent !"
    - metalrulesall

    Kurt Cobain made fun of himself. He was the poster boy for prozac. Those kind of people who write about gloom and doom have no place in the musical world. Music is supposed to make people feel better. Explain to me how Nirvana brightened anyone's day...

    "I even had a little mini skirt and waistcoat made for Wig Wam Bam. The skirt was so short, my undercart hung beneath the hem. I thought it best to keep my underwear on"-Steve Priest
    Posted 3 years ago #  
  29. carroll13

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    Music is meant to express emotion.
    *All types* of emotion.
    An artform with no emotional range is rather ineffective.
    When I feel bad, hearing or playing a song that expresses my feelings helps me get over it....that's where the Blues came from.
    By that logic, Robert Johnson should have stopped playing music, along with Leadbelly and Lennon.
    Oh, speaking of John Lennon, he wrote songs saying things like "I'd rather see you dead, than baby with another man" and "I'm lonely! Want to DIE!"

    And really,Cobain wrote a lot of funny/joking/sarcastic songs, he was often making jokes in the lyrics, but in retrospect people paint a lot of them as negative mostly because of how he ended up.
    I mean come on, "Sell your kids for food"?"I'm a negative creep and I'm stoned?"...jokes!

    ...how terribly depressing!
    /sarcasm

    Putting limits on what music can or should express is rather silly, misses the point of music, and is very UN-Rock & Roll.

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    Posted 3 years ago #  
  30. Syndrome477

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    okay let me put it another way. Logic and common sense tell me that I want to pick out music to put me in a better mood. I don't know how Cobain fits into that. He was on a lot of drugs and was always in a bad state of mind. John Lennon was not constantly depressed and chemically dependent. So to compare Kurt Cobain and John Lennon....well there is no comparing the two.

    "I even had a little mini skirt and waistcoat made for Wig Wam Bam. The skirt was so short, my undercart hung beneath the hem. I thought it best to keep my underwear on"-Steve Priest
    Posted 3 years ago #  

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